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‘After we do get within the door, do we’ve got to adjust to the way in which issues have at all times been?’


MBW’s partnership with the wonderful Did Ya Know? podcast continues, as Adrian Sykes talks to hip-hop royalty and groundbreaking government Cookie Pryce about her experiences as an artist and as a Black lady within the enterprise on each side of the Atlantic…


Cookie Pryce is a pioneer of Black British music who went on to turn out to be a trailblazing Black feminine exec throughout the UK trade.

As a youngster, she and childhood pal Susan Banfield (Susie Q) fashioned Cookie Crew, a rap duo from South London who pre-dated artists equivalent to Wee Papa Woman Rapas and Monie Love.

The had a prime 10 hit virtually accidentally, with Rock Da Home (credited to Beatmasters that includes Cookie Crew), however then cast a profession primarily based round their actual ardour, old-school hip-hop (or, because it was recognized then, hip-hop), recording two albums and touring with artists equivalent to Public Enemy and De La Soul.

When the group ran out of steam (and enthusiasm), Pryce re-invented herself as an government, engaged on each side of the Atlantic, in press, promotions, advertising and marketing, dwell – and now as Senior Label Supervisor at The Orchard.

Rising up in South London (one thing Cookie Crew had been at all times pleased with and sometimes rapped about, even when among the references baffled their US viewers), she says “music was second nature to us; that’s what we did, we flicked by means of the import sections of the file outlets in Clapham Junction after which we went house and listened to music”.

Sooner or later, in Susan’s kitchen, “we had been listening to The Message and we determined we had been going to put in writing a rap”.

 

Quickly after, BBC Radio London turned as much as broadcast from Battersea City Corridor, the place they had been hanging out with some mates and a beatbox.

The presenter requested them what they did, “and so we stated we had been rappers. We’d by no means touched a mic in our life, we’d by no means carried out. However what had we acquired to lose?”

The ensuing publicity led to them taking to the stage for the primary time (changing into rappers simply weeks after they’d informed a sizeable chunk of London they had been rappers), at native reveals and neighborhood occasions.

Till in the future they heard a couple of rap competitors on the legendary Wag Membership: “We had been nervous as hell, however we went down there and we put our names on the checklist. I can visualise it now: the place was crowded, we had been standing sort of away from the stage, not even speaking to one another as a result of we had been so nervous.

“We needed to be taken critically, as a result of we beloved our craft. We had been there for the music.”

“And oh, we kiiiilled it. The group was going nuts, we might barely hear ourselves. When it was introduced that we gained: Oh. My. Days. Our toes didn’t contact the ground. The prize on the night time was £200 and a recording contract. However we weren’t , we didn’t pursue that. We simply needed to be on this scene that was constructing and be a part of this tradition. We simply needed to rap.”

Which is what they did, for the following few whirlwind years, earlier than splitting (while remaining mates), at which level Pryce entered the exec life, confronted an entire new set of challenges, and overcame them with the identical willpower, confidence and expertise she dropped at the UK rap scene after which the world.


Whenever you walked offstage at The Wag, did you at any level suppose, that is going to alter my life?

We felt we felt elated, and we felt supported by the those that had been with us.

We felt on a excessive and we felt very pleased with South London, as a result of issues had been sort of booming there on the time. However no, we didn’t suppose that is the following step in our profession. I suppose it was a type of acceptance.

We felt like individuals would take us critically. There weren’t many ladies across the scene, and we needed to be taken critically, as a result of we beloved our craft. We had been there for the music, we had been there for the tradition.


I can keep in mind some extent the place UK rap turned very trendy, it turned an appropriate a part of the mainstream music enterprise. What was the second while you turned a part of that world?

It really kicked off once we acquired a name from the fellows who had been the Beatmasters, however earlier than they turned the Beatmasters. They had been creating TV advertisements on the time, they usually wanted any person to do voiceovers. They knew Tim Westwood and Tim really useful us.

We went all the way down to see them and we did just a few TV spots with them. By that, we realised that we loved working collectively of their studio, which was in Wardour Road; we simply bonded.

On the time, once we did reveals, we had been nonetheless rapping over cassette tapes, and we informed them it will be good to have some authentic music, like backing tracks.

Then they created this backing observe, they usually needed us to put in writing a rap to it, and what we wrote turned Rock da Home (1987, No. 5), which changed into this beast – and have become often called the primary ever hip-house observe.

It was their undertaking, it wasn’t actually something to us. It’s only a observe, no matter.

Then it acquired into the arms of Mark Moore, who had a relationship with Rhythm King, they usually had been . We went for a gathering, however we nonetheless didn’t perceive the enterprise, so we simply stated, certain, put it out, do what you’re doing.

When it was successful, second time spherical, with the remix, it actually escalated. It began making noise within the US, but it surely was taking place within the background for us, as a result of we weren’t combined up within the music enterprise.

We didn’t have administration, we didn’t perceive the authorized scenario. Plus, we didn’t really need something to do with this observe, as a result of it wasn’t us. We didn’t need to destroy our status as hardcore rappers, proper?

So we sort of disowned it. I’m not mad at it, I’m grateful for it, as a result of if it wasn’t for Rock da Home, we wouldn’t have had all these majors knocking at our door. I believe we might have even come to see you again within the day…


It’s possible you’ll effectively have executed, however I’ve acquired a humorous feeling that any person supplied much more cash than I used to be capable of placed on the desk…

I believe so, Adrian [laughs].

On the similar time we met an incredible lady referred to as Jean Davenport, who ultimately turned our supervisor.

She was reserving UK reveals for US rappers, flying forwards and backwards to the States.

She had heard about us and we met her when Run DMC had been enjoying Busby’s.

She stated she needed to ebook us for a present referred to as Rap Assault. If that assembly hadn’t occurred, I wouldn’t be sitting right here speaking to you at this time to be trustworthy.

There have been so many individuals coming after us to handle us. We had been having conferences with unusual characters, and we at all times knew there was one thing a bit dodgy about them.

In the long run, we persuaded her, and he or she taken care of us very effectively. She was the one which walked us by means of every little thing, when the labels had been ringing, and all of the publishing firms had been ringing.

Her and one other great lady, her sisterin-law referred to as Mary McLennan, they turned our administration staff. They sort of took management, as a result of me and Susan didn’t have a clue.

We’d be in these conferences with attorneys and label heads, and we’d be sitting on the couch whereas Jean and Mary had been up entrance. And let me inform you, these two girls had been robust.

They didn’t take no shit from nobody. Folks tried to take the piss, manipulate them, however you possibly can’t fuck with Jean and Mary, let me inform you.

They had been those who set us up as a restricted firm, they put us on a payroll, they made certain we put a deposit down on property.

They taught us every little thing. while you hear tragic tales about managers ripping individuals off, the artist indicators a recording contract, then the supervisor will get an enormous automotive and the artist is broke? None of that with us.


What was your expertise of being signed to a label as hip-hop/rap artists, attempting to do one thing that was completely true to the core of who you had been?

We had been very fortunate, really.

We had been additionally fairly headstrong, cussed in some circumstances. We informed them what we needed, however issues had been amicable. Pete Tong was our A&R, we had a great relationship with our label, and we simply made certain we delivered.

Out of all of the labels that we sat with, London Data/FFRR felt like the fitting house for us, as a result of they listened.

We informed them precisely what we needed to do, we stated we don’t need to make extra music like Rock da Home, although I’m certain they’d have beloved that.

We didn’t actually perceive that signing right into a file label is a enterprise deal, proper? It’s a mortgage, and everyone desires a return on their funding, however we simply didn’t need individuals to regulate us.

The deal was with London, and thru Polygram worldwide.

So even travelling to the US and slotting into that tradition, while retaining our British identification was… enjoyable and difficult at some factors, as a result of we refused to be managed or informed what to put on.

We simply needed to be us, a few ladies from South London who do what we need to do. However sure, on the similar time, we’ll ship what must be delivered.


So, you’ve got all this wonderful success as an artist, what was the purpose the place you thought, I’m gonna turn out to be an government?

To be trustworthy, it wasn’t a case of, that is what I need to do. As a result of although we had been signed to a label, and we knew there was a promo staff, a press staff, a PR staff and so on., I nonetheless didn’t actually perceive what these roles had been.

And in addition there was no person that regarded like us in these roles. However on the similar time, it acquired to a degree the place the music they needed us to make wasn’t what we had been feeling. It turned a bit troublesome, a little bit of a chore.

They needed pop hits that we couldn’t ship.

Mentally, we had been able to sort of wind down. We had been nonetheless gigging, we didn’t shut down utterly, we simply didn’t need to be tied to that company factor, we wanted a break from it.

I believe it was the very best factor for us, as a result of if we had carried on, it might have turned horrible I needed to remain inventive – however work at a label? I didn’t actually know what that was.

How do you apply for that? I simply acquired on a hustle, actually. And I semi-reinvented myself.

I registered with a bunch of businesses, acquired my foot within the door with a few reception jobs right here and there, and I simply saved getting callbacks from totally different departments, as a result of I used to be good at no matter I used to be doing.

I ended up within the press division at MCA, and I preferred it, it was a pleasant surroundings. Then there was a spherical of redundancies, which was a blessing as a result of there was this New York artist, A+, coming over to do promo.

We had been placing collectively an itinerary, and in one of many emails I recognised this title, Vivian Scott Chew, the founding father of TimeZone Worldwide [who had previously worked with Cookie Crew as part of the US promo team within Polygram].

She knew everyone, proper? She additionally is aware of the tradition of this nation.

She came to visit with A+ and that’s once we related once more. That exact same week, I used to be made redundant from Common [who had bought MCA], she requested me if I needed to go to the States and work along with her.

And the attention-grabbing factor about going to work within the US is how individuals acquired me again within the UK.


Inform me what was totally different in the way in which individuals handled you…

The UK is a really attention-grabbing area, significantly the trade that we work in.

We see that issues are actually altering, we’re seeing individuals of color in several areas.

Again then, that wasn’t the case; there was a handful of us, proper? However there was, God, it’s such a triggering factor typically…

that you just’re proper, and that try to be in several areas, however you had been by no means pulled by means of the ranks, regardless of how onerous you attempt, or what you do, or who you might be, what your background is, what your credentials are, what your deserves are; that didn’t imply something to anybody.

So going to the US and seeing that flip round, being an individual of color with a British accent, that was a bonus in itself. And so they revered the work that you just put in.

If Vivian didn’t take me to New York, I in all probability wouldn’t be sitting right here speaking to you. As a result of I believe she was the one which jogged my memory of who I used to be and the way good I’m and that there have been prospects.

So, once I got here again to the UK, I got here again with a unique vitality.


What do you keep in mind about your experiences within the UK trade at the moment?

There have been a lot of what I now know as microaggressions in the way in which city music was handled again then, even simply how issues had been handled in conferences.

There’s one incident which nonetheless triggers, it actually shouldn’t, but it surely does.

We had a large planning assembly for a large artist, Missy Elliott. I set it up, all departments could be attending and it was throughout lunchtime, which meant we sorted out some meals, sandwiches and so on.

Just a few individuals dropped out nearer the time, but it surely was an excellent assembly. And normally on the finish of any sort of planning assembly, you get some sort of optimistic response out of your leaders.

After this assembly, I used to be pulled again and somebody stated, ‘Er, Cookie, you’ve ordered too many sandwiches.’ Now, I hadn’t, individuals had dropped out, however both approach, what a response.

What a factor to say. However these are the sorts of issues I used to be coping with.

Going to the US, it was a unique area for me.

I modified, I used to be invited to conferences, I used to be included in conversations and I used to be speaking with individuals within the UK that in all probability by no means had the time of day for me once I was there. In order that was attention-grabbing.

Additionally, going to the US and seeing those that seem like us… they’ve their very own issues within the States, we all know that, however you do stand a greater probability of being accepted into that surroundings and being part of one thing the place you’re going to develop collectively. Within the UK, I wasn’t getting that.


Seeing all that, what made you determine to come back again?

There was a component of one thing right here that I used to be lacking.

I needed to come back again and make it work.

However even coming again, making use of for jobs that had my title written throughout them, and being informed you’re not skilled sufficient, it blew my thoughts. However I used to be decided to do it on this area, as a result of that is the place I’m from.

I might have simply stayed, however I used to be lacking London, I actually was.


And while you did come again, how was it attempting to interrupt into an area the place, as you say, there weren’t many individuals who regarded such as you?

I believe I used to be simply decided, significantly while you’re working music that you just’re enthusiastic about, and you already know extra about it than those that are form of attempting to inform you about your self. It’s like, this ain’t proper. It simply took time.

And let’s not get it twisted, we nonetheless have hurdles to leap over. However I needed to win, I didn’t need to surrender.

Some individuals I do know have given up up to now, as a result of there’s at all times moments the place you ask, why am I coping with this?

However grasp on a minute, that is what I do. That’s why I’ve managed to maintain myself related, I believe.


What had been among the challenges that you just confronted, as a Black lady within the music enterprise within the UK? What was it like for you?

Simply not being included. Not being included in conferences about music and artists that you just had been going to be working throughout. Not being invited to that occasion, or sitting round that dinner desk, with these artists I’m working.

And the reality is that when these artists come to city, they’re in search of the individuals of color – and after they discover you, they discover you. I discovered that difficult.

They didn’t need our faces spherical that desk for concern of… I don’t know what. Us getting on, us forming a working relationship. I believe we now know what it was, however on the time, there wasn’t sufficient of us to combat the trigger.

Though we did combat, and we had our moments, it wasn’t like now the place you possibly can even have conversations and converse truthfully. Again within the day, you say something and it’s like, Oh, what occurred to such and such? Silence.


How do you suppose the enterprise has modified with regard to these moments of alternative and that dialog?

It has modified drastically, however there’s nonetheless numerous work to be executed. Companies must do higher. With this technology now, they’re those which can be in management, with the ability of social media, and the ability of individuals speaking instantly to one another.

Again in our day, you possibly can’t speak to that particular person over there, since you’ve acquired to undergo this particular person and that particular person. Everybody was holding these gates closed. However now they’ll’t management that.

Issues have gotten higher as a result of youthful individuals, they’ve hearth of their stomach. And so they’re not scared, they’re not afraid to talk. And what occurred a few years in the past, in 2020, I believe that spoke volumes.

And I typically surprise, if 2020 didn’t occur, if the pandemic didn’t kick off, if George Floyd didn’t occur, if Blackout Tuesday didn’t occur, what would this area seem like now?

2020 was the primary time I used to be capable of actually converse my thoughts with out repercussions. That’s an enormous distinction. I believe issues would have modified, however it will have been at a slower tempo.

I used to be seeing change visibly, seeing younger individuals of color, as a result of any person in that firm was bringing individuals by means of.

You possibly can’t ignore what younger individuals of color are doing for this trade, the music they carry in and what they contribute financially; persons are earning profits, proper? And that’s horny stuff for this trade.

So individuals have been allowed in and given roles, however these roles must be elevated. Persons are coming in at entry stage, however what in regards to the elevation?

That’s what’s lacking, persons are working onerous and never getting the identical alternatives. Since 2020, I’m very aware of fasttracking, you already know, promotions, totally different job titles. Okay, so we’re good?

We’re good for these titles? So why wasn’t that taking place 5, 10, 15 years in the past? As a result of it could possibly be performative motion. I don’t need to suppose it’s that, however there was numerous quick monitoring post-2020.

I like that, I like what I’m seeing, however the place’s that come from? Why are you doing it now, and so shortly?


Essentially the most cynical reply is that numerous it was window dressing, being seen to be doing the fitting factor. And it’s a dialog that’s come up a few instances on this sequence. Do you see it as that? Or do you see it because the trade really desirous to make significant change?

I believe they do need to make significant change.

It’s simply unlucky, all of the issues that occurred to kickstart and to go on the tempo it did. So I suppose a few of it’ll seem like window dressing, however I need to see all that’s taking place flourish into one thing that’s actual and sustainable.

I need to see individuals develop of their roles, develop at an organization.

“Are we allowed to have our personal voice, or do we’ve got to pay lip service till we catch up?”

I need to see extra individuals of color in management and making selections.

And that’s taking place, up to now 24 months or so, but it surely has to proceed.

There’s nonetheless numerous work to be executed, and it must be executed proper.

We additionally need to signify, proper, once we deliver ourselves by means of or deliver individuals by means of and provides individuals alternatives: do good, do issues with goal, don’t allow us to down, don’t let me down.


How do you suppose the music enterprise has modified in its relationship to girls and girls of color?

I’m not going to disclaim it has modified, however, once more, it could possibly be higher. I believe there’s extra males of color in management positions proper on this nation. I want to see extra girls, and extra elders.

As a result of we see elders when it comes to white executives.

I need to see black individuals working in these jobs after which taking retirement, not rapidly disappearing after no matter time frame within the trade.

It’s about having that longevity, placing these individuals in senior positions and permitting them to be who they’re.

As a result of the issue with not sufficient of these individuals present is, once we do get within the door, do we’ve got to adjust to the way in which issues have at all times been?

Are we allowed to create our personal approach, principally? Are we allowed to have our personal voice, or do we have to play lip service till we catch up?

However sure, there must be extra girls and extra girls of color.

And so they’re on the market, everyone knows they’re on the market, and the younger ones which can be coming by means of, they’re gonna kill it – and I can’t wait to see that occur.


You’re one of many first black girls execs on this enterprise. And one of many unbelievable issues, and I hope you already know this, is that there are such a lot of Black girls on this enterprise who maintain you up as somebody that opened the door and paved the way in which. Do you see your self that approach?

Sure, I do, really; I’m going to personal that.

As a result of I’ve additionally had longevity, in opposition to all the percentages.

I’m nonetheless right here. Over time, I’ve labored at totally different companies, I’ve labored with totally different circles of individuals, I’ve labored with individuals from totally different generations, and I can nonetheless keep, in any circle.


Which girls, both from beforehand or now, do you see as function fashions and inspirations?

Initially is most positively Taponeswa [Mavunga, Director of Africa, Sony Music UK] and Mel [Rudder, Founder, Three Thirty Music]. Strolling right into a label [Atlantic] and assembly these two was unimaginable.

I don’t suppose I’d ever labored at a label the place I had Black feminine colleagues, and we acquired very tight. We nonetheless are very tight. , Mel didn’t realise that she was unimaginable. I needed to inform her.

She knew she was placing within the work, however she wasn’t being informed how wonderful she was. We created such a bond, we referred to as ourselves the city angels, and we delivered.

We labored some wonderful initiatives the place it was simply us as a staff pulling it out of the bag. We made it occur. So I take my hat off to these two, they’re nonetheless my mentors to today,


Give us an outline of your function as Senior Label Supervisor at The Orchard.

I handle the day-to-day of individuals’s companies: organising releases, getting tracks onto the DSPs, working with the retail advertising and marketing staff, and simply being the linchpin, getting their music to market, and overseeing all the inner mechanics that make a launch.

It’s educating, it’s instructing them about finest practices, learn how to arrange a launch.

As a result of lots of people are inventive, however they don’t know the processes of learn how to get their stuff to market.

We’re there to assist that. And it’s throughout the board, it’s not only one style, I’ll work throughout totally different types of music, totally different companies, and never solely within the UK.

It’s working a label, principally, however a number of labels not one label at a time. I’ve been at this firm for eight years, I’ve by no means stayed wherever this lengthy, as a result of I just like the individuals I work with – and that’s an enormous deal.


This interview is taken from a brand new podcast sequence, Did Ya Know?, which tells the usually unheard tales of key figures within the British music trade, and is focusing initially on pioneering executives of color. The staff behind the brand new pod consists of Stellar Songs co-founder Danny D and Decisive Administration co-founder Adrian Sykes. Music Enterprise Worldwide and our sister model, MBUK, are proud to be companions and supporters of Did Ya Know?. You possibly can take heed to it wherever you discover your favorite podcasts.Music Enterprise Worldwide



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